Are Camillus Beckers Better Than Ka-Bar Beckers?

So another long time coming post. If you want to just skip it and get the main point, well here you go:

Camillus Beckers are not better than Kabar Beckers

Now for those wishing for some more detail let's carry on into the latest edition of my ramblings. 

Ok so let's break this down. We will discuss this in a few categories:

1. Steel

2. Heat Treat

3. Fit and Finish

4. Handles
5. Sheaths

So here's the point I want to make about the steel: many times when you see an old Camillus Becker for sale the listing usually goes something like this: "This is made back when Camillus was making them out of good steel, not the crap steel Kabar puts out." This is ridiculous, it's basicity the same steel! And if you want to really get down to the specific details: the 1095CV from Kabar has a very slight upper hand. So much of this "Camillus is better" nonsense comes from asshole sellers on eBay tying their hardest to hype them up as much as possible. Don't buy into it.

First off, let me say I AM NOT A METALLURGIST!

This is all info I have found online from trusted sources. 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong! 

So the Camillus Beckers were made out of a version of Sharon Steel 0170-06. Camillus called it their "exclusive" 0170-06C. This 0170-06C steel is identical to the famous Cold Steel Carbon V. Camillus was making the Carbon V knives for Cold Steel back then, so that gave Camillus access to it. The only thing was, the deal Cold Steel made with Camillus said they couldn't call it Carbon V. So they added that "C" to the end of 0170-06. 

Kabar makes the Beckers out of 1095CV. 1095CV has the same make up as the Sharon Steel 0170-06. So the only difference between the Camillus 0170-06C (Carbon V) and regular 1070-06 (1095CV) is that the Camillus steel subtracted the nickel. 

Side note: The difference between 1095 and 1095CV is the 1095CV has an addition of nickel as well as the "CV" chromium and vanadium. Which I think makes it pretty close to O1 tool steel. 

So basically what all that above is saying is that the steels are incredibly similar! So similar that an average user could not tell them apart from performance.  However, the Kabar 1095CV has the advantage. The additional nickel in the Kabar Beckers adds some better stain resistance and more edge toughness. Again, these advantages are very minor and hardly noticeable. So, what I'm saying is: don't ever let anyone tell you Camillus Beckers have better steel. 

So number two, heat treat. I don't know anything about the blade heat treating process so this will be short. The word on the street is Dan Maragni was in charge of setting up the Cold Steel Carbon V heat treat process at Camillus, which also included the other blades at Camillus using that steel: all the Beckers. By all accounts the heat treat on the Camillus Beckers was wonderful and by all accounts the Kabar heat treat is wonderful. So I'm not sure one is really better than the other. I have accounts that both companies have had a mistake in some of the heat treat batches and some blades broke. So it's hard for me to say one is better than the other, but Ethan says that Kabar is better. So the win goes to Kabar. 

Here's the quote:

So onto the fit and finish. 

Kabar wins hands down. It seems like every day at Camillus was 4 O'clock on a Friday. The quality control was garbage. Some people attribute this to the fact that they were going bankrupt, which may be a contributing factor, but it seems primary grinds were off from the beginning.

Here is a Camillus bk2. The edge heights are uneven from each other and the thickness at the tip clocks in at 0.085"!

So I know it may seem like I'm fussing over nothing here but think about this: the edges, while uneven, are not that bad and look to be pretty thin. So think about how obtuse that edge is! If the edge thickness at the tip is 0.085 and in the middle 0.055, the guy at the factory who put the final edge on it must have done it at about a 50 degree angle!

Here we have a Camillus bk7.

Two things to note here. First, the primary grind line is extremely crooked near the stamp. This is on like 50% of Camillus Becker primary grind lines. Sometimes its only crooked on one side and not the other. Don't just take my word for it, go to Worthpoint or look at sold listings on Ebay. This is the worst one I could find in my collection because I sold all the awful ones that were really messed up.

Second thing to see, the edge comes inward for about the first inch from the handle. So whoever was at the grinder putting the final edges on really pushed in a bit to hard. I know it may be hard to believe but both these flaws are on TONS and TONS of Camillus Beckers.

I'm sorry I don't have more extreme examples of it but I got rid of all of my bad ones. If you have a good eye just check out Google Images and I'm sure you will find more like this. It can be really hard to see some of these minor details in listing photos. I have sadly been disappointed many times opening the box when it comes in the mail after winning an auction.

On this Camillus bk10 you will see a massive difference in the primary grind height on each side of the knife.

This is also very common and sometimes very hard to see in listing photos.

Here is the edge thicknesses from a Camillus bk4... absolutely horrible. That fact that in a straight on photo you can see the silver sides on the edge is sad.

Here is the edge on the bk1... just sad and pathetic. I know there are one or two of you out there reading this right now thinking I'm and idiot. Thinking "oh, well you need a thick edge on a chopper" or "just convex it, it will be fine" NO. Go check out a nice quality hatchet sometime. You will find the edges to be much thinner than what you see on most production "chopper" knives. This bk1 without some major surgery is worthless.

As you can probably tell from above one of my biggest complaints against the Camillus Becker's are the edges. They left the primary grind angle too thick so the edges, are as you can imagine, too thick as well. This isn't the end of the world, you can always convex the crap out of it and knock the shoulders off. However, it is my opinion that while these fixes can help with an obtuse edge, it will never be as good as a blade that had the primary grind taken down to the right thickness from the start.

Here are just a random few I pulled out and measured to prove the point.  All these measurements were taken from the same spot on each blade.

I'm a big believer in judging a knife by how it cuts. After all, that's the number one thing it should do! So less edge thickness equals less resistance and less cut angle to go through something.  Yes I understand in lots of applications you would want a thicker edge (cleavers and choppers come to mind), but I also think most production makers are scared people will break their knives and leave the edges too thick. Kabar seems to understand that you can still make an indestructible knife with a great thin working edge. That's another win for Kabar!

So the handles.

Camillus handles were made out of Grivory. The Kabar handles have been made out of tons of different stuff: Zytel, Hylon, and now I believe it's Ultramid. I really couldn't tell you the difference between any of these. They all seem to be polymer and very close to being the same thing. I could be wrong, but I believe the actual names such as "Grivory" and "Zytel" are just trademark names. So in theory what I think is really going on is: Company X could be making a polymer they call Grivory. Company Y is making the exact same polymer but they would have to come up with their own name so they call it Zytel. So really when we say the handles changed from Hylon to Ultramid, what I think we are really saying is Kabar changed the company they buy the polymer from. Anyone who knows more about these types of polymer feel free to correct me on anything off! I encourage it!

The only main difference is that the Camillis Grivory handles are slightly thicker. Of course Kabar does offer aftermarket micarta that is also a bit thicker than their stock handles. I feel like even if you have massive hands the extra thickness from the Camillus handles really dosen't make enough of a difference to justify it. Usually it seems like for the price of a Camillus Becker on eBay you could just buy a new Kabar Becker with micarta for the same price, so again why buy the Camillus?

Lastly is the sheaths.

You might think Camillus would win because they put out the bk1-5 with kydex sheaths, but no. The kydex was very nice, but the retention you get with a real kydex sheath was not there. The sheath was designed to be ambidextrous so sadly the retention still came down to just a nylon button strap. The green nylon sheaths were very simple and low quality. The current Kabar sheaths are MOLLE compatible. They have an extra secure belt loop that you can put on or off without having to take your belt off. They also have tons of eyelets to tie it onto things (or to tie things onto it). The front pocket is much better at expanding and has a plastic slot for a bk13 or other small knife. It is important to note some old Kabar bk5, 7, and 9 sheaths were not MOLLE equipped, but all current ones are. People always like to whine about the stock nylon sheaths, but think about this, no other sheaths (even most customs) have as many features and carry options.

So let's start to close this one down. Question: why should you buy a Camillus Becker over a Kabar? Answer: you shouldn't. The Kabar is better and that's just how it is, but all you get from the internet is Camillus hype. People use this hype to either inflate the value of one they are selling or to inflate the value of their collection. If I have to read one more Camillus bk7 listing on ebay that starts out like "This was made back in the day by Camillus before those garbage Kabar people ruined them. This one is so much higher quality and infinitely better steel." I'm going to go CRAZY...

I hope that what you gather from all that I'm saying isn't that Camillus Beckers are bad, because they are 100% not. Ethan would not have let his designs be made if they weren't up to standards. A Camillus Becker will still perform and last a lifetime. What I want you to take away from this is: don't believe the hype and question those who create it. 

Now, of course, there are a select few reasons to buy a Camillus Becker. The bk1 and bk6 come to mind, Kabar dosen't make those models. So if you want one you're going to have to buy the Camillus version.

If you're a collector then by all means buy them, but understand you're paying more not because they are better than what's being produced, but because the company went under and they are no longer made. This makes them collectibles.

Another reason to buy one is if you're looking for any of the specials like the bk71, bk9HH, etc. If you know what these are then you know these really should only be bought by collectors anyway.

A lot of the time the question comes up of: if I find a Camillus Becker for the same price as a Kabar, should I get it? NO. If you are going to use it get the one with the warranty! This happens a lot with those tactical assholes who are holding out trying to find a Camillus bk7 so they can feel cooler and create more hype.

Now if you can get a Camillus Becker for a fair bit cheaper than a Kabar, go for it, you're getting a great deal. I'd assume if you're paying less than a new one it would be used, but sometimes people don't know what they have and an amazing deal pops up. Just keep in mind if it breaks there's no warranty.

Next, there are some differences within the models which might justify for some to spend the extra money on the Camillus versions. For example: a Camillus bk2 is thinner than a Kabar bk2, and a Camillis bk9 is thicker than a Kabar bk9. Similarly to those examples, there are a few differences between Camillus and Kabar Beckers. I talk about all of them HERE in my Compare and Contrast post. When it comes down to it, none of these differences really affect how they perform drastically enough to matter. I feel like I'm probably one of the only people allowed to actually make claims like this because I own a full set of the Camillus Beckers. Two sets of them really... My first set I acquired was all users and I slowly gathered a set of all new in box for the collection. I've used them all and the Kabars are just better. I have no reason to lie, a lot of what I'm saying here and in other posts on this blog literally de-values the blades in my collection.

So last thoughts here and then we're done. Camillus Beckers are just overall not as good as what we are currently getting from Kabar and I think that's great! Who likes sitting around talking about the good old days way back when, knowing they are all gone. Well guess what people: we are currently in the good old days of Becker knives! Never before have Beckers been made with such good fit and finish, steel, sheaths, quality, value, and with more models to choose from than ever. These are the golden days.